This competition is conducted by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) which is an agency sponsored by the UK Ministry of Defence.
\n\nUK government's own data science guidelines (https://data.blog.gov.uk/2015/12/08/data-science-ethics/) state that data science project should be as open as possible and have a public benefit. I'm not sure how that applies to potential military uses. I guess that's the eternal dual-use technology dilemma.
\n\nWhat will be the use of the algorithms developed in this competition?
\n\nHow Kagglers view the moral implications of participating in such competitions?
", "messages": [ { "id": "151272", "postDate": "12/19/2016 20:25:46", "content": "This competition is conducted by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) which is an agency sponsored by the UK Ministry of Defence.
\n\nUK government's own data science guidelines (https://data.blog.gov.uk/2015/12/08/data-science-ethics/) state that data science project should be as open as possible and have a public benefit. I'm not sure how that applies to potential military uses. I guess that's the eternal dual-use technology dilemma.
\n\nWhat will be the use of the algorithms developed in this competition?
\n\nHow Kagglers view the moral implications of participating in such competitions?
", "rawMarkdown": "This competition is conducted by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) which is an agency sponsored by the UK Ministry of Defence.\r\n\r\nUK government's own data science guidelines (https://data.blog.gov.uk/2015/12/08/data-science-ethics/) state that data science project should be as open as possible and have a public benefit. I'm not sure how that applies to potential military uses. I guess that's the eternal dual-use technology dilemma.\r\n\r\nWhat will be the use of the algorithms developed in this competition?\r\n\r\nHow Kagglers view the moral implications of participating in such competitions?", "votes": null }, { "id": "151400", "postDate": "12/20/2016 16:24:20", "content": "I view military defense as providing a strong public benefit.
\n\nPersonally, I wouldn't find it ethical to work on, say, biological weapons. But I see this competition as foundational science/technology, and don't really care if it is sponsored by the Ministry of Defense.
", "rawMarkdown": "I view military defense as providing a strong public benefit.\r\n\r\nPersonally, I wouldn't find it ethical to work on, say, biological weapons. But I see this competition as foundational science/technology, and don't really care if it is sponsored by the Ministry of Defense.", "votes": null }, { "id": "151406", "postDate": "12/20/2016 16:58:35", "content": "What are the moral implications of predicting which adverts to target a user? predicting which ones to target for credit cards? predicting the winner of a horse race? predicting which insurance customers will be dead by 50? predicting which patient is more to likely to respond to treatment so the clinical trial is a \"success\". Our whole subject is in dodgy moral ground
", "rawMarkdown": "What are the moral implications of predicting which adverts to target a user? predicting which ones to target for credit cards? predicting the winner of a horse race? predicting which insurance customers will be dead by 50? predicting which patient is more to likely to respond to treatment so the clinical trial is a \"success\". Our whole subject is in dodgy moral ground", "votes": null }, { "id": "151633", "postDate": "12/21/2016 15:42:25", "content": "@Bluefool -
\n\n. . . or predicting the results of March Madness . . . :-)
", "rawMarkdown": "Bluefool -\r\n\r\n. . . or predicting the results of March Madness . . . :-)", "votes": null }, { "id": "151664", "postDate": "12/21/2016 18:34:49", "content": "In a strict sense, I'd say it is impossible to avoid any connection to the defense industry when working with machine learning.
\n\nMost of the methods, research, and tools you use were initially funded and/or designed for use in warfare: The modern field of operational research arose during World War II. The optimization methods were invented for atom bomb research. Popular research and tools are sponsored by the US Navy, DARPA, or IARPA.
\n\nIf you feel any moral ambiguity when looking at a challenge, I'd say simply do not enter it (and don't hassle the others that do enter). The small possibility of winning is not worth messing with your moral comfort zone.
\n\nFor my moral system, it helps to separate function from use. Missiles could arguably be used both for good and bad, their function should be the most accurate possible, to avoid collateral damage. A good fake-news detector can also be used to hide undetectable propaganda. Improved satellite imagery feature detection has both military and non-military uses (https://www.kaggle.com/c/afsis-soil-properties). Besides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.
\n\nEdit: Not suggesting that you are hassling people, just saying that one should not do it for legal Kaggle competitions, since morals are subjective, and enforcing your moral system on others is iffy.
", "rawMarkdown": "In a strict sense, I'd say it is impossible to avoid any connection to the defense industry when working with machine learning.\r\n\r\nMost of the methods, research, and tools you use were initially funded and/or designed for use in warfare: The modern field of operational research arose during World War II. The optimization methods were invented for atom bomb research. Popular research and tools are sponsored by the US Navy, DARPA, or IARPA.\r\n\r\nIf you feel any moral ambiguity when looking at a challenge, I'd say simply do not enter it (and don't hassle the others that do enter). The small possibility of winning is not worth messing with your moral comfort zone.\r\n\r\nFor my moral system, it helps to separate function from use. Missiles could arguably be used both for good and bad, their function should be the most accurate possible, to avoid collateral damage. A good fake-news detector can also be used to hide undetectable propaganda. Improved satellite imagery feature detection has both military and non-military uses (https://www.kaggle.com/c/afsis-soil-properties). Besides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\r\n\r\nEdit: Not suggesting that you are hassling people, just saying that one should not do it for legal Kaggle competitions, since morals are subjective, and enforcing your moral system on others is iffy.", "votes": null }, { "id": "151667", "postDate": "12/21/2016 18:49:55", "content": "@Triskelion: since when discussing == hassling?
\n\nI'm not entering the competition because I have no experience in working with images (and it's currently not on my priority list).
\n\nThe topic was opened to see whether I was the only one that felt ambiguous about this competition.
", "rawMarkdown": "Triskelion: since when discussing == hassling?\r\n\r\nI'm not entering the competition because I have no experience in working with images (and it's currently not on my priority list).\r\n\r\nThe topic was opened to see whether I was the only one that felt ambiguous about this competition.", "votes": null }, { "id": "151681", "postDate": "12/21/2016 20:34:06", "content": "[quote=Triskelion;151664]\n...\nBesides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\n...\n[/quote]
\n\nNot for the Iraq people or dead civilians I guess.
", "rawMarkdown": "[quote=Triskelion;151664]\r\n...\r\nBesides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\r\n...\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nNot for the Iraq people or dead civilians I guess.", "votes": null }, { "id": "151971", "postDate": "12/22/2016 17:45:54", "content": "", "rawMarkdown": "", "votes": null }, { "id": "152038", "postDate": "12/23/2016 02:26:46", "content": "So, now we know the real use of hyperspectral imaging in the military.
\n\nSpectral | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix
\n\nIt's a pretty good movie, if you ignore what you know about physics. :-)
", "rawMarkdown": "So, now we know the _real_ use of hyperspectral imaging in the military.\r\n\r\n[Spectral | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix][1]\r\n\r\nIt's a pretty good movie, if you ignore what you know about physics. :-)\r\n\r\n\r\n [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmC3ZhIHHi4", "votes": null } ], "comments": [ { "id": 151400, "author_name": "inversion", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/20/2016 16:24:20", "content": "I view military defense as providing a strong public benefit.
\n\nPersonally, I wouldn't find it ethical to work on, say, biological weapons. But I see this competition as foundational science/technology, and don't really care if it is sponsored by the Ministry of Defense.
", "votes": null, "replies": [] }, { "id": 151406, "author_name": "domcastro", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/20/2016 16:58:35", "content": "What are the moral implications of predicting which adverts to target a user? predicting which ones to target for credit cards? predicting the winner of a horse race? predicting which insurance customers will be dead by 50? predicting which patient is more to likely to respond to treatment so the clinical trial is a \"success\". Our whole subject is in dodgy moral ground
", "votes": null, "replies": [] }, { "id": 151633, "author_name": "inversion", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/21/2016 15:42:25", "content": "@Bluefool -
\n\n. . . or predicting the results of March Madness . . . :-)
", "votes": null, "replies": [] }, { "id": 151664, "author_name": "triskelion", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/21/2016 18:34:49", "content": "In a strict sense, I'd say it is impossible to avoid any connection to the defense industry when working with machine learning.
\n\nMost of the methods, research, and tools you use were initially funded and/or designed for use in warfare: The modern field of operational research arose during World War II. The optimization methods were invented for atom bomb research. Popular research and tools are sponsored by the US Navy, DARPA, or IARPA.
\n\nIf you feel any moral ambiguity when looking at a challenge, I'd say simply do not enter it (and don't hassle the others that do enter). The small possibility of winning is not worth messing with your moral comfort zone.
\n\nFor my moral system, it helps to separate function from use. Missiles could arguably be used both for good and bad, their function should be the most accurate possible, to avoid collateral damage. A good fake-news detector can also be used to hide undetectable propaganda. Improved satellite imagery feature detection has both military and non-military uses (https://www.kaggle.com/c/afsis-soil-properties). Besides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.
\n\nEdit: Not suggesting that you are hassling people, just saying that one should not do it for legal Kaggle competitions, since morals are subjective, and enforcing your moral system on others is iffy.
", "votes": null, "replies": [ { "id": 151681, "author_name": "snowdog", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/21/2016 20:34:06", "content": "[quote=Triskelion;151664]\n...\nBesides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\n...\n[/quote]
\n\nNot for the Iraq people or dead civilians I guess.
", "votes": null, "replies": [ { "id": 151971, "author_name": "triskelion", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/22/2016 17:45:54", "content": "", "votes": null, "replies": [] } ] } ] }, { "id": 151667, "author_name": "erykwalczak", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/21/2016 18:49:55", "content": "@Triskelion: since when discussing == hassling?
\n\nI'm not entering the competition because I have no experience in working with images (and it's currently not on my priority list).
\n\nThe topic was opened to see whether I was the only one that felt ambiguous about this competition.
", "votes": null, "replies": [] }, { "id": 152038, "author_name": "inversion", "author_url": "", "post_date": "12/23/2016 02:26:46", "content": "So, now we know the real use of hyperspectral imaging in the military.
\n\nSpectral | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix
\n\nIt's a pretty good movie, if you ignore what you know about physics. :-)
", "votes": null, "replies": [] } ], "raw_markdown_by_id": { "151272": "This competition is conducted by Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) which is an agency sponsored by the UK Ministry of Defence.\r\n\r\nUK government's own data science guidelines (https://data.blog.gov.uk/2015/12/08/data-science-ethics/) state that data science project should be as open as possible and have a public benefit. I'm not sure how that applies to potential military uses. I guess that's the eternal dual-use technology dilemma.\r\n\r\nWhat will be the use of the algorithms developed in this competition?\r\n\r\nHow Kagglers view the moral implications of participating in such competitions?", "151400": "I view military defense as providing a strong public benefit.\r\n\r\nPersonally, I wouldn't find it ethical to work on, say, biological weapons. But I see this competition as foundational science/technology, and don't really care if it is sponsored by the Ministry of Defense.", "151406": "What are the moral implications of predicting which adverts to target a user? predicting which ones to target for credit cards? predicting the winner of a horse race? predicting which insurance customers will be dead by 50? predicting which patient is more to likely to respond to treatment so the clinical trial is a \"success\". Our whole subject is in dodgy moral ground", "151633": "Bluefool -\r\n\r\n. . . or predicting the results of March Madness . . . :-)", "151664": "In a strict sense, I'd say it is impossible to avoid any connection to the defense industry when working with machine learning.\r\n\r\nMost of the methods, research, and tools you use were initially funded and/or designed for use in warfare: The modern field of operational research arose during World War II. The optimization methods were invented for atom bomb research. Popular research and tools are sponsored by the US Navy, DARPA, or IARPA.\r\n\r\nIf you feel any moral ambiguity when looking at a challenge, I'd say simply do not enter it (and don't hassle the others that do enter). The small possibility of winning is not worth messing with your moral comfort zone.\r\n\r\nFor my moral system, it helps to separate function from use. Missiles could arguably be used both for good and bad, their function should be the most accurate possible, to avoid collateral damage. A good fake-news detector can also be used to hide undetectable propaganda. Improved satellite imagery feature detection has both military and non-military uses (https://www.kaggle.com/c/afsis-soil-properties). Besides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\r\n\r\nEdit: Not suggesting that you are hassling people, just saying that one should not do it for legal Kaggle competitions, since morals are subjective, and enforcing your moral system on others is iffy.", "151667": "Triskelion: since when discussing == hassling?\r\n\r\nI'm not entering the competition because I have no experience in working with images (and it's currently not on my priority list).\r\n\r\nThe topic was opened to see whether I was the only one that felt ambiguous about this competition.", "151681": "[quote=Triskelion;151664]\r\n...\r\nBesides, warfare can lead to positive outcomes: The large number of lost limbs and brain damage resulting from the Iraq war, in turn, resulted in better PTSD treatments, bionic limbs, and brain-computer interfaces.\r\n...\r\n[/quote]\r\n\r\nNot for the Iraq people or dead civilians I guess.", "151971": "", "152038": "So, now we know the _real_ use of hyperspectral imaging in the military.\r\n\r\n[Spectral | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix][1]\r\n\r\nIt's a pretty good movie, if you ignore what you know about physics. :-)\r\n\r\n\r\n [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmC3ZhIHHi4" }, "source": "meta" }